The End of Warhammer Fantasy

skerrigan
Posts: 71
Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2012 7:55 am

Re: The End of Warhammer Fantasy

Postby skerrigan » Wed Aug 26, 2015 6:21 pm

My advice would be to use what you like from the End of Times, but perhaps include alternative scenarios the GM can use. So for example maybe you wouldn't like the idea that Malekith is the One True King (I hate that), or that Lileath is truly the Lady of the Lake (I like that). DotF technically contradicts EoT as Naieth and Morganna le Fay are separate entities in the narrative. One is vamped and killed, the other kills herself in a ritual.

ragnar63 wrote:1. We continue with the Storm of Chaos canon but incorporate the revelations from the End Times where possible. That would mean for instance, including the idea that Malekith is in fact the true Phoenix King in the High Elf supplement, with Teclis engineering his take up of the Phoenix Throne and how that could happen and the possible results.

jackdays
Posts: 55
Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2008 5:43 am
Contact:

Re: The End of Warhammer Fantasy

Postby jackdays » Sat Sep 12, 2015 2:11 pm

Herr Arnulfe wrote:What about these formats:

1. Post-SoC/End Times Fusion: 1-page summary that could be added to any fan supplement. Succinct re-cap of major revelations from ET, but otherwise the setting exists as described in Sigmar's Heirs. This could be useful as quick-reference both for GMs and fan contributors alike.
2. Golden Age alternative future: Community fan pdf, could be anywhere from 20-200 pages, depending on desired scope and contributions.
3. Post End Times alternative future: As #2, but dystopian.

It might also be worth producing a 1-pager summary for v1-era projects ("The Complacent Empire"). I suspect many people prefer that period. Perhaps another 1-pager summary for v3-era projects ("Eve of Destruction") in case a fan project wanted to explore the SoC/End Times apocalypse.

Thanks goodness we have Jackdays' living timeline, this could become confusing. :)


How confusing this will be for me, if I try to continue the timelines ;)

Well, what ever people decides to do, I think we can all agree, that Warhammer World should live. And probably most people (if not all) do not want the world turn to Forever-War-post-TET-apocalyptic horror show either. So, TET cannot happen fully. Offcourse this could be option if you really want to play that out. But, the end of the world in 2528 comes little too fast...

I'm actually finishing up new updated version of my TET-timeline. It's still the official timeline. It will have timeline all the way to 2526 probably. When I have been building that, I had the idea of that 1. Post-SoC/End Times fusion also.
Last edited by jackdays on Sat Sep 12, 2015 2:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Welcome to grim and perilous Norsca. Welcome to Kalevala Hammer.

Enter freely and of your own free will, and leave some of your happiness...

jackdays
Posts: 55
Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2008 5:43 am
Contact:

Re: The End of Warhammer Fantasy

Postby jackdays » Sat Sep 12, 2015 2:48 pm

So, my idea about SoC - TET fusion in short would be following. The idea is to use as much official stuff as we can. Especially all the good ones. But, not all the bad stuff. Also try to get the original SoC-stuff (in WFB and WFRP) in line with TET-stuff. I think it is possible to do both. And the end goal is to keep the world living and end this conflict. Please, do comment:

First SoC:
2521: Surtha Lenks vanguard invasion. Valten is found by Luthor Huss.
2522: Archaon and his generals attack Kislev and the northern Empire. This goes as SoC goes. Archaons forces are defeated. Crom's forces are defeated and he retreats to Dark Lands and back to north to get more warriors. Archaon retreats to Brass Keep (which is taken by the Nurgle folk as in TET). From there Archaon returns to north to lick his wounds. War is not over yet. Valten's body disappears. He is actually killed, but more from that later... Mannfred von Carstein has now come open from hiding. After this war there will be the Bretonnian civil-war.
2523: War in the north continues. Kislev is falling as more and more northmen are coming. Mannfred von Carstein declares himself as the ruler of Sylvania. He has gathered most of his prisoners. Volkmar starts his crusade - first stop is Averheim (the Sword novels), then Sylvania (Blood of Sigmar). He fails, and is captured. Gelt rises the Wall of Fate. Later Arkhan enters Sylvania and makes a pact with Mannfred. They start their mission to find the lost artifacts (TET: Return of Nagash).

TET continues from there:
2524: TET: Return of Nagash, Kislev falls. Gelt creates the Bastion. I would go as far as trashing Praag and Erengrad (as in stories). Most of Kislev is in ruins. But City of Kislev holds, maybe. Also Ice Queen and remaining loyal warriors move around the country fighting the endless hordes of Chaos. Nagash returns and steals the Death Wind. He resurrects Vlad von Carstein, Drachenfels...etc. AND he also resurrects dead Valten to fight the Chaos hordes as he is the "Child of Light". Valten returns to the Empire without memory. He is again found by Luthor Huss. Later Gelt is corrupted. This is all straight from the TET: Return of Nagash.
2525: TET: Glottkin. Archaon sends the Glottkin. Talabheim is attacked, but not destroyed. The rest of the force lands Nordland coast (where in the original story only Gutrot Spume landed) and go down from there. So, no Marienburg invasion. I want to safe that city. Maybe Carroburg is attacked and destroyed? Then Fall of Altdorf. And so on... Karl-Franz survives, Hellborg is killed, Louen Leoncoeur is killed. Nagash attacks his homeland - The Land of the Dead.
2526: As TET goes...
2527-2528: End of conflict?
2530 and beyond: That Golden Age. Age of Exploration, rebuilding...etc.

On the background:
- Tilea and Estalia (and Border Kingdoms) ARE NOT invaded by Skaven.
- Bretonnia Civil-War. But maybe not the return of Gilles. After the dead of Louen Leoncoeur this leaves Bretonnia nicely open for new ruler and some "game of thrones".
- War in Lustria against Skaven. This could be hard one, but Skaven will loose and the Lizardmen will not leave the planet.
- Skaven War against Dwarfs. Skaven and the Dwarfs make huge war. Some holds will fall, as in TET: Thanquol. But not all. And not for example iconinc places like Karak Kadrin will not fall.
- Maybe the iconic Chaos Moon is not destroyed by Skaven...

What remains open:
- Elves. I would like to keep the Naggaroth - Ulthuan situation stable. And I dont like the idea of destroying Ulthuan and the Great Vortex AND the release of the Winds. So, should the civil-war happen? Should Malekith attack there? Or just forget all that.
- Also I dont like that everything is trashed (you have to break some eggs sometimes, but not all) in the world. So, there should be somekind of ending to this conflict where Archaon is killed by someone and the world continues from there. Maybe his second invasion against Middenheim in 2527 would be the end?
- But, what about Nagash and Sylvania then? Nagash is one of the biggest players. One idea is, that he actually needs time to get his power. And this doesnt mean just year or so. It could be like decades. This should buy some time. As for Sylvania - well, either Vlad or Mannfred takes over.
Welcome to grim and perilous Norsca. Welcome to Kalevala Hammer.

Enter freely and of your own free will, and leave some of your happiness...

Herr Arnulfe
Site Admin
Posts: 921
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2008 1:36 pm

Re: The End of Warhammer Fantasy

Postby Herr Arnulfe » Sun Sep 13, 2015 7:10 am

This is great stuff jackdays. I've only recently started reading the End of Times material, but I wonder if a SoC/EoT fusion would even have to include things like e.g. Glottkin attacking Talabheim, and Louen Leoncoeur dying. Also, do you think it's better to make the EoT event a 6-year conflict, or could it still be a 2-year blitzkrieg to Middenheim like SoC? For purposes of a WFRP setting that takes place afterwards, the only important questions IMO should be "which is cooler for roleplaying?", especially if we're only using selected bits from both campaigns anyway.

In other words , do you see any roleplay benefit of Glottkin having damaged Talabheim, or the timeline being extended, which makes it worth having to deviate from the Sigmar's Heirs setting?

Perhaps the more extensive and destructive EoT campaign events could be used as the basis for our longer "dystopian future" sourcebook? In that version, maybe Marienburg and Quenelles are destroyed. I didn't envision the 1-page "SoC/EoT fusion" primer providing much detail on the event itself, just describe the current state of the setting in the aftermath.

jackdays
Posts: 55
Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2008 5:43 am
Contact:

Re: The End of Warhammer Fantasy

Postby jackdays » Sun Sep 13, 2015 9:49 am

I think one of the things I have criticized in SoC event, is the timetable. It's just way too fast. I think the war should last longer and be little more deadlier. These are offcourse things many people dont like (years of war and destroying places - example: Wolfenburg. Its sacking is one of the top criticized stuff about SoC for some fans, in my opinion... And it's just one town). When you read TET forward you will see that the long timetable and huge amount of simultaneous events are much more better designed, than SoC.

But, this is basicly background stuff. Some people may have some interested to create wartime campaign, but most probably are more interested what's coming after and skip the entire event itself. And this post-SoC/TET world would be 2530 and beyond. And it could be interesting world, more interesting than post-SoC, because there has been little more damage. Some important figures (actually many) have been killed (like King Louen and Morgiana - what will happen in Bretonnia; Or as good-old-Boris also gets himself killed, Heinrich Todbringer might get the title finally - New "king of the north", Heinrich X ;) )...etc...etc.

It's hard to say SHOULD the war be 2-year conflict or 6-year. But, the war should be longer. Otherwise I dont think there is enough time to do all the stuff that is happening. And if timeline goes faster, then the events are really reshaped totally different form. People involved may not have time to be in the places they should be. And this changes both SoC and TET totally.

My lead idea here is, that when this optional timeline is ready, some novice may take the timeline and the books (novels, WFB, WFRP), and all the fluff seems to be right?! I mean old SoC based stuff and the new TET based. They happen (mostly) in the years they were meant to happen, they happen in right order...etc. Ok, not everything is going to be as in books, but still most will. I think I can connect all the stuff. In roleplaying aspect (war-campaign), this produces good possibilities and time to move around and be involved in various events. Otherwise this is just background for the new age, which starts around 2530.

Example: Glottkin Invasion. It's actually well designed (if you like the three "nukes" they have). Three simultaneous huge attacks. One takes down Marienburg --> Carroburg --> Altdorf; one Talabheim --> Altdorf; and the third is not so important, but gathers Beastmen forces. With all those forces also corruption given by Nurgle, spreads wildly - this is very important thing in the invasion. A real Chaos-nukes. I dont really know do I like this idea, but gives explanation how they manage to take down all those places (otherwise they would have needed incredible amount of people). As Nuln falls to Skaven sametime, Altdorf is really left alone here. But, I dont like Marienburg destroyed, nor Nuln. I dont like Talabheim destroyed either (actually even Talabheim was damaged in the Glottkin attack, I dont think it was destroyed. It was left pretty bad shape, but the invading Daemonic Host left towards Altdorf and Gotrek & Felix book gives idea, that the city has fallen later date). So, my point here is that I'm tryin to use parts of it, so the logic of this attack remains, yet also tryin to save some things. Maybe invasion starts with Carroburg falling and Talabheim sieged. But, probably something needs to be done with Nuln also (maybe new Skaven attack, but not as deadly as in Part IV: Thanquol book).

But, this is just a plan for one future possibility. And there are some things (major issues) that needs to rethinked, like what happens with the Elves? Or with Nagash? Also both Valten and Archaon needs to get killed? I quess we dont start killing the Gods neither, as they are also in the line of fire in TET...

Ok, you are right. I dont know if this is the way to go with that number 1 background possibility, if you considere using Sigmar's Heirs. But, I think this is the way to go with post-SoC&TET fusion. There probably should be separate possibility to use just post-SoC timeline.
Welcome to grim and perilous Norsca. Welcome to Kalevala Hammer.

Enter freely and of your own free will, and leave some of your happiness...

skerrigan
Posts: 71
Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2012 7:55 am

Re: The End of Warhammer Fantasy

Postby skerrigan » Sun Sep 13, 2015 4:13 pm

Interesting timetable, but for me TEoT events and WFRP do not mix very well - too many pointless resurrections, little player agency to prevent the apocalypse, which requires the good guys to be stupid and the bad guys at times to be very sharp (such as co-ordinating the kidnapping the Fay Enchantress, Volkmar and various other godly types).

jackdays wrote:Or as good-old-Boris also gets himself killed, Heinrich Todbringer might get the title finally - New "king of the north", Heinrich X ;) )...etc...etc.


The novel Lord of the End Times makes it clear all Boris's sons were killed by his beastman nemesis. But feel free to ignore that.

Also, I'm not sure why you'd resurrect Valten (especially getting Nagash to do it) just to have him die again in TEoT. Not that he's such an interesting character to be honest, though James Wallis's Mark of Heresy did some interesting stuff with the Purple Hand trying to corrupt him in Huss's crusade.

I never got - what was Valten's new purpose in TEoT? He certainly wasn't Sigmar reborn - that was Karl Franz.

Rangdo
Posts: 117
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2011 1:09 pm
Location: Formerly 'Ovid'

Re: The End of Warhammer Fantasy

Postby Rangdo » Sun Sep 13, 2015 5:12 pm

Shadow of the Demon Lord has just come out, which is explicitly Warhammer-esque (and by one of 2e's designers) in the context of an apocalypse. If that's the kind of game people want, then surely they should play that.
I used to be Ovid.

jackdays
Posts: 55
Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2008 5:43 am
Contact:

Re: The End of Warhammer Fantasy

Postby jackdays » Mon Sep 14, 2015 1:40 pm

skerrigan wrote:Interesting timetable, but for me TEoT events and WFRP do not mix very well - too many pointless resurrections, little player agency to prevent the apocalypse, which requires the good guys to be stupid and the bad guys at times to be very sharp (such as co-ordinating the kidnapping the Fay Enchantress, Volkmar and various other godly types).

jackdays wrote:Or as good-old-Boris also gets himself killed, Heinrich Todbringer might get the title finally - New "king of the north", Heinrich X ;) )...etc...etc.


The novel Lord of the End Times makes it clear all Boris's sons were killed by his beastman nemesis. But feel free to ignore that.

Also, I'm not sure why you'd resurrect Valten (especially getting Nagash to do it) just to have him die again in TEoT. Not that he's such an interesting character to be honest, though James Wallis's Mark of Heresy did some interesting stuff with the Purple Hand trying to corrupt him in Huss's crusade.

I never got - what was Valten's new purpose in TEoT? He certainly wasn't Sigmar reborn - that was Karl Franz.


Well, remember - some things will change, offcourse. Idea was to be loyal to original stories, but as far as it suits.

TET itself is just huge amount of events that mostly go pretty badly for "the good guys". And the entire event just goes towards - well, THE END. But, my idea is to prevent the end (the destruction of the world) :) And like I said, for most people this will be just background stuff, because most probably would play post-SOC/TET world.

Yes, Valten. He's point in the story is interesting (or not). Remember, his new title is "Herald of Sigmar". So, in SoC his role was to be the hero of light, which will battle the champion of darkness. But, this idea seemed to have change (like some other things), when they designed TET. Maybe he is somekind of "sign of hope" that comes before the God himself. I dont know. His role is a mess and then he just dies. He is clearly very poweful, and these divine powers probably come from Sigmar. But, he is one of those characters, that are not given enough story/time to develope more. The entire event is pretty huge and many persons (and events) could have served more detailed storylines.

Why resurrect Valten? Well, maybe in my optional timeline Valten could actually kill Archaon? Maybe they kill each other in Middenheim, when they meet second time...

Why is Nagash involved with this? Ok, I dont know does it make sense, but it was just one idea. Valten is killed at the end of SoC. So, how did he reappear again (or more likely - how was he resurrected?). Well, if Nagash gets Wind of Death, this could be one, actually pretty logical, possibility. Nagash understands that he needs help to defeat Chaos, and Herald of Sigmar is pretty good change to take down Archaon for him. If Valten appears just after Geheimnistag of 2524, this would go line pretty much with rest of the information in the book.

Other possibility is, that he is just saved by Sigmar, when Skaven assassin attacks. And then returned to world 2524 again.
Welcome to grim and perilous Norsca. Welcome to Kalevala Hammer.

Enter freely and of your own free will, and leave some of your happiness...

skerrigan
Posts: 71
Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2012 7:55 am

Re: The End of Warhammer Fantasy

Postby skerrigan » Mon Sep 14, 2015 3:23 pm

I'd like to see a fan-written SoC campaign/sourcebook for setting adventures and detailing the major NPCs. For all that that WFRP2E was forced to use SoC I don't think any major SoC NPC showed up.

jackdays wrote:Well, remember - some things will change, offcourse. Idea was to be loyal to original stories, but as far as it suits.


Indeed, my mooted SoC book would involve giving the DM the tools to run their own Big Battle vs Chaos scenario, perhaps after the TEW3E. One of the flaws of that campaign is it feels like the PCs should go to war at some point, as all the rumours build to it.

jackdays wrote:Yes, Valten. He's point in the story is interesting (or not). Remember, his new title is "Herald of Sigmar". So, in SoC his role was to be the hero of light, which will battle the champion of darkness. But, this idea seemed to have change (like some other things), when they designed TET. Maybe he is somekind of "sign of hope" that comes before the God himself. I dont know. His role is a mess and then he just dies.


I suspect he is included as... drum roll... he had a model. For example Duke Theodric is leading the Bretonnians at La Maisontaal because he has a model, the Bretonnian Lord with Axe (nice model though!)

jackdays wrote:Why resurrect Valten? Well, maybe in my optional timeline Valten could actually kill Archaon? Maybe they kill each other in Middenheim, when they meet second time...


If Valten is Sigmar's Avatar, surely once he is slain Sigmar simply assumes another Avatar - even one suspiciously similar. Could be the reason why there was no body. Maybe he went poof when killed by the Skaven. Although having another blacksmith suddenly appear is a bit silly.

jackdays
Posts: 55
Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2008 5:43 am
Contact:

Re: The End of Warhammer Fantasy

Postby jackdays » Mon Sep 14, 2015 4:06 pm

skerrigan wrote:If Valten is Sigmar's Avatar, surely once he is slain Sigmar simply assumes another Avatar - even one suspiciously similar. Could be the reason why there was no body. Maybe he went poof when killed by the Skaven. Although having another blacksmith suddenly appear is a bit silly.


Even in SoC I always taught, that Valten was not really "Sigmar Reborn". That was just title given by sigmarites. I think in there the "Champion of Light" role is actually just a Chosen of Sigmar. A Champion bestowed with divine power, not god himself. Like Magnus the Pious before him. So, in this timeline Sigmar himself would not actually appear in the world, just give his powers.

Yes, its seems silly that another blacksmith would appear. That why - Nagash. Nagash realizes, that the Champion of Light is down and brings his soul back (actually forces the soul to resurrect back to the world). But, this causes Valten to lose his memory of past partly. He remembers of being once blacksmith, but thats all.

People just do not think he could anyway be connected to that Sigmar Reborn Valten. Because that Valten died in Middenheim. So, he starts from the bottom again and rises in fame during the battles fought in the border area - Until he gets attension of Luthor Huss himself. Luthor offcourse recognizes him.

One thing I like in TET, is Nagash bringing back couple of people: Vlad and The Nameless One - Well, he is Drachenfels. Vlad is interesting semi-bad character. Drachenfels we dont see much in the story, but those few moments are really good. He is made real evil one (as should be). But, I like the idea that finally he corrupts Huss and takes his body. These things & characters give interesting possibilities after the conflict (or why not during the conflict too).
Welcome to grim and perilous Norsca. Welcome to Kalevala Hammer.

Enter freely and of your own free will, and leave some of your happiness...


Return to “The Foyer”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest